The Sound Board

Broadcast really Guy - hence why I quoted that particular bit of Heisenberg's post (again below...)

heisenberg wrote: ↑Jan 23, 2018 11:23 pm From a strictly utilitarian point of view this app is remarkable. You need to get your output ready for TV broadcast specs, -23 LUFS, and you are there in a couple of minutes even if your stuff is all over the place with dynamics across the frequency band.

Although I'm interested to know if people still mix with peak levels in mind and where... (radio??)

For example on the blue forum I read Charlie Clouser explaining how he slams the waves limiters pretty hard on each of his stems... So I know people are still going for that stuff still - as I said in my first post I do that same on individual elements occasionally - although pretty rarely in comparison.

Chris

I don’t use it while mixing. Only in WaveLab when mastering/finalising.

chrisr wrote: ↑Jan 26, 2018 8:47 am Hi Thomas,

Thanks for your input and I hope I don't sound ungrateful in my response, but to clarify, I'm not confused about the meanings - I've delivered many mixes to broadcasters (BBC/SKY etc) in LUFS, and before loudness standards came along many more at PPM6/-10dbFS. No problems with QC. Prior to composing full-time I worked in audio post production for quite a long time.

No worries, I wasn't sure if there was some sort of confusion or lack of understanding, now I know it's neither

I don't think I could do a single mix without a limiter at the end. Could be that I'm working in the wrong way or that I'm not knowledgeable enough, a Pop/Rock CD track still "needs" to get up at -9 LUFS (or less!) and I really need a limiter to keep those peaks under control. And Spotify and the other digital services are around -15/-13 and still I need a limiter to get control of the peaks in the end product.

And, I'm talking finsihed product, not final mix. I usually don't use a limiter when I mix (well, on very large background vocals buses I tend to get lazy).

Chris - I shamelessly use peak limiters while mixing for broadcast. While dramas and documentaries are free of such things, LE in particular is absolutely still wedded to the peak limiter (I haven't yet met an employed LE mixer who doesn't use peak limiting and all manner of compression). It is just the sound of LE. The industry joke is that Loudness = PPM 5, because if you mix pushing a limiter and then compensate for R128 delivery, we all find that pretty much it comes out exactly as it used to except 4db quieter. Also - and this really is understood by anyone outside the industry - live broadcasts and studio records of studio shows are almost invariably not using Loudness, but still mixing to PPM6 with a brickwall.

(While I'm on my hobby horse 1, there's also a misapprehension that music mixing for TV needs to be delivered to -23 LUFS, which isn't the case. That's the level required for final programme audio, so logically no individual element - sync, sfx, music - will peak to the same thing).

(While I'm on my hobby horse 2, there's lots about Loudness that is nonsensical. The basic idea that a full on heavy metal concert should have the same average level as a fly fishing documentary for one. The fact you can't reasonably mix for live another. The fact that adverts and continuity is exempt - the very thing Loudness was brought in to fix - is another. I better stop....)

Aha! Thanks Thomas - that does answer a big part my question! From what you're saying the loudness requirements for streaming services are still typically well above those for broadcasters (8 to 10db louder!)

I don't (and haven't) delivered songs to spotify or other streaming services - so there's the rub!

What I'm getting from all of this is that there is probably nothing going on with this plug-in that I am likely to need for my own work.

Ironically, given Raymond's post (Hi Raymond!) I bought Wavelab 9 about a year back in the big sale, just to cover off a situation where I might have to deliver audio for CD or similar - (very unlikely for me nowadays) - as Wavelab natively has some pretty neat mastering tools (MasterRig).

I think I'll stick with what I have for now. The difference between me using the tools that I already have for mastering/limiting and using the PSP plug-in are probably small enough that the defining feature of my use of either would be my lack of specific mastering expertise/monitoring set-up. I'm sure for the mastering pro's quoted on the product review there's far more tangible benefits.

---------------------------

Guy - in quick reply to your post - I can see how there's a temptation to simply mix to peak levels just like in the old days, because then everything works just like we always used to - and for certain programming, yes, that does make sense

Cheers all!
Chris

chrisr wrote: ↑Jan 26, 2018 8:57 am Broadcast really Guy - hence why I quoted that particular bit of Heisenberg's post (again below...)

heisenberg wrote: ↑Jan 23, 2018 11:23 pm From a strictly utilitarian point of view this app is remarkable. You need to get your output ready for TV broadcast specs, -23 LUFS, and you are there in a couple of minutes even if your stuff is all over the place with dynamics across the frequency band.

Although I'm interested to know if people still mix with peak levels in mind and where... (radio??)

For example on the blue forum I read Charlie Clouser explaining how he slams the waves limiters pretty hard on each of his stems... So I know people are still going for that stuff still - as I said in my first post I do that same on individual elements occasionally - although pretty rarely in comparison.

Chris

I do video work where I do final deliverables. If you're sending to Broadcast -23 LUFS is often a specified requirement for the final audio. This plugin does it fast and elegantly when paired up with a meter that shows you LUFS results as you are previewing. If you google LUFS requirements you will quickly find different LUFS requirements for other deliverables like YouTube, Vimeo etc and they are nothing near as low a level as for Broadcast.

I don't know if I would use this on individual tracks per se, others may. If I am going to be playing around with synths, like Aalto, that can go crazy loud I would make sure I use a limiter to protect my speakers and ears. My LUFS concern has nothing to do with brickwall limiter uses like the aforementioned.

Really glad I picked up this plugin. One of the more tangibly useful plugs I have got in recent memory. Thanks again Piet!

EDIT:

Discovered the sale on Xenon is extended until Sunday.

heisenberg wrote: ↑Jan 28, 2018 2:11 am
This plugin does it fast and elegantly when paired up with a meter that shows you LUFS results as you are previewing.

what are people using for "a meter that shows you LUFS results as you are previewing"

Hi Greg,

If you use Reaper, here is a Google image search result that should be helpful. I was looking at this earlier today, as I have been toying with getting into Reaper...

https://www.google.ca/search?q=reaper+l ... 12#imgrc=_

You will see a bunch of results that show various ways to display loudness calcutations in Reaper. This image in particular shows a traditional input/output display that shows the loudness results including on the LUFS scale in Ozone in Reaper.

https://forum.cockos.com/attachment.php ... 1333673526



Here is the loudness scale in Nuendo which is what I use. The right hand side is the averaged LUFS or loudness average on the LUFS scale, at that moment in time when the snapshot was taken. Not sure if this is in Cubase. Someone else can verify.

heisenberg wrote: ↑Jan 28, 2018 4:24 am Hi Greg,

If you use Reaper, here is a Google image search result that should be helpful. I was looking at this earlier today, as I have been toying with getting into Reaper...



You will see a bunch of results that show various ways to display loudness calcutations in Reaper. This image in particular shows a traditional input/output display that shows the loudness results including on the LUFS scale in Ozone in Reaper.

https://forum.cockos.com/attachment.php ... 1333673526


Here is the loudness scale in Nuendo which is what I use. The right hand side is the averaged LUFS or loudness average on the LUFS scale, at that moment in time when the snapshot was taken. Not sure if this is in Cubase. Someone else can verify.

thanks and I do use Reaper and I do have Ozone

Reaper is definitely worth looking at - if it suits you it will really suit you. I have been looking at Samplitude, which I bought on sale, and it is very good, but the configurability of Reaper, track templates, drag and drop fx etc etc, is hard to beat

Gregh wrote: ↑Jan 28, 2018 3:48 amwhat are people using for "a meter that shows you LUFS results as you are previewing"

iZotope Insight here - does the job.

Guy Rowland wrote: ↑Jan 28, 2018 4:42 am

Gregh wrote: ↑Jan 28, 2018 3:48 amwhat are people using for "a meter that shows you LUFS results as you are previewing"

iZotope Insight here - does the job.

hopefully not too off topic, but why psp Xenon then and not Izotope Ozone or Neutron?

Well I don't have Xenon so I'm not the right person to ask, but it looks like a very good product that combines brickwall limiting with loudness targeting. If you don't have that, then it looks like an excellent buy at this price. However I do have that in several variants, so it just doesn't make any sense to me.

Guy Rowland wrote: ↑Jan 28, 2018 4:55 am Well I don't have Xenon so I'm not the right person to ask, but it looks like a very good product that combines brickwall limiting with loudness targeting. If you don't have that, then it looks like an excellent buy at this price. However I do have that in several variants, so it just doesn't make any sense to me.

I thought I would get it - test for ease of use and quality against other things I have and then sell off what I don't need. PSP have an easy license transfer policy - something I look for now