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Bolder Sounds / Fiddle!

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Piet De Ridder
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Bolder Sounds / Fiddle!

Post by Piet De Ridder » Sep 14, 2018 12:48 am

Bolder Sounds has released the first of a planned series of fiddle libraries:



- A wide dynamic range of sustain multisamples with velocity splits ranging from 7 to 20 multisamples per half step.
- A Front Page that offers a realtime display of articulations being used.
- The two sampled sound sources (Tube Mic and Ribbon Mic) can be edited completely independently, and the settings can be saved as independent Presets.
- The Settings Page gives you extensive control over Attack and Legato articulations – as well as Auto Bow.
- Half and Whole Step Slides at 3 speeds. You can adjust the Speed, Sample Start, Attack and Attack Curve.
- On the Expression Page, you set up and control the Dynamics, Pitch Bend and Vibrato.
- An extra instrument fiddle! - Extras.nki that can do Chops, Plucks, Up-Bow and Down-Bow Harmonics, Various fiddle FXs and Tuning gestures .
- An Effect Panel with 5 FX Slots. In the first two Slots you can load different Effects. Each FX Slot has its own Preset menu, so you can save and recall all the various parameters.

Introductio price: $47.95 (that's 20% off the normal $59.95)

The full uncompressed size of this library is 1.38 GB. It has been Kontakt compressed (.ncw) down to 1.06 GB.
This library requires the full NI Kontakt (5.5.2 or higher). (Can be demoed in the Kontakt Player though but will time-out after 15 minutes.)

https://soundcloud.com/bolder-sounds

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NoamL
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Re: Bolder Sounds / Fiddle!

Post by NoamL » Sep 16, 2018 9:20 pm

There are parts of the first demo that remind me of EW Gypsy (roma) Violin. You definitely hear the seams between different articulations. But the 'tude is there. The second demo (8th notes perpetuum) is much better. As long as you don't push this lib too much into challenging territory it could be really useful. Price is fair too!


Lawrence
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Re: Bolder Sounds / Fiddle!

Post by Lawrence » Sep 17, 2018 3:17 am

I've been holding fire waiting for some user demos, but, well.

I love me some Bolder Sounds. I go back to using their stuff on CD for Roland samplers. I use their mandolin and banjo and love 'em to death. Always reasonably priced, always good quality.

The price of this fiddle is fair, and I'm sure some use can be gotten out of it, but as an all in fiddle solution, the demos don't sound very convincing to me. I'm avidly waiting for something to allow me to give up my finicky Garritan Strad for this use, but ...sadly, not yet. The fast runs sound synthy to me, and some of the turnarounds don't sound like they connect to the legatos. Just my .02.
(YOU can call me Larry)


Guy Rowland
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Re: Bolder Sounds / Fiddle!

Post by Guy Rowland » Sep 17, 2018 3:26 am

Yeah, didn't do much for me either. I think this came up recently in another thread that, human voice aside, a folk fiddle might be pretty much the hardest instrument of all to sample effectively. So full marks to Bolder for trying but not too surprised the results aren't entirely convincing.

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Tanuj Tiku
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Re: Bolder Sounds / Fiddle!

Post by Tanuj Tiku » Sep 17, 2018 4:27 am

At $50, I think it is a good sketching tool. Nothing I heard in there could ever be used in a professional production. For $100 more you could simply hire a player.

It would be good to have something like this in the arsenal for mock-ups and putting down ideas.

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Piet De Ridder
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Re: Bolder Sounds / Fiddle!

Post by Piet De Ridder » Sep 17, 2018 6:13 am

I wish developers would start moving away from these $50 libraries that, inevitably, are no more than superficial and very limited appetizers for what a serious library could be like. (If I ever were to make a fiddle library, something like this Boulder library is what I would make available for free so that interested people could get a first, rough idea of what the full library is all about.)

Why not make this, say, a $300 library and offer something that is at least 10 times as detailed, deep and musical as what is contained in the current version? As it is, this is the sort of library that you use once or twice and then cast aside because you've exhausted its possibilities.

I bought this actually, but only because my daughter is wild about Celtic fiddle stuff — and meanwhile, I am too — and I want to surprise her with a little something for her birthday.

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Re: Bolder Sounds / Fiddle!

Post by Guy Rowland » Sep 17, 2018 6:40 am

In this case... isn't the question whether or not $300 or $3,000 could really get remotely there with current tech? Its a worst-case sampling scenario. You're bowing using a huge variety of techniques on a fretboard, tons of glisses, ports and vibrato. And this is the kicker - using multiple strings simultaneously. It makes a boring old orchestral violin seem like a toy piano in terms of sampling difficulty. It would need one helluva scripting engine, that's for sure.

The only other option is the dreaded phrases, but at least it would sound convincing.

On the plus side - fiddle players should be the least afraid of losing their jobs.

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Piet De Ridder
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Re: Bolder Sounds / Fiddle!

Post by Piet De Ridder » Sep 17, 2018 7:43 am

Yeah, I know, it is an extremely daunting challenge and without a doubt bound to quickly run into the limits of what is currently possible with sampling alone, but still: I'm sure it's doable to go quite a bit further with capturing a fiddle in samples than the Boulder goes. Some more dynamics, a few more variations in the articulations and maybe something along the lines of what 8dio includes in their libraries: 'arcs' (which are bowings with a dynamic curve). I would never expect to be able to replace a fiddle with a sample library — hoots! to that idea —, but just something a bit more capable and ambitious than the current package is.

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Quasar
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Re: Bolder Sounds / Fiddle!

Post by Quasar » Sep 17, 2018 12:24 pm

Gee, tough crowd.

I bought this and like it, as at the very least it "alludes" to a Celtic or old Appalachian-like vibe quite well. I did notice that when you play fast a couple of the notes seem to sometimes have an unnatural growling/fluttering sound, and I'm not sure what that is all about.


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Re: Bolder Sounds / Fiddle!

Post by wst3 » Sep 17, 2018 1:18 pm

Lawrence wrote:
Sep 17, 2018 3:17 am
I'm avidly waiting for something to allow me to give up my finicky Garritan Strad for this use, but ...sadly, not yet. The fast runs sound synthy to me, and some of the turnarounds don't sound like they connect to the legatos. Just my .02.
I am right there with you Larry! Every time I fire up Strad I cross my fingers, first, because I have run into intermittent problems with Kontakt versions after V2 (I still have Player V2 installed, but that is hinky too!). And second, because it is not an easy library - I don't use it often enough to know it cold, so I end up spending time re-learning.

I've only got a couple hours of driving time with the new Bolder Fiddle. Thus far I really like it, but I am not ready to use it yet, switching articulations - well managing articulations I guess - is a little tricky, and fast passages still sound synthetic.

As soon as I suss this out I will post a couple demos...


Lawrence
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Re: Bolder Sounds / Fiddle!

Post by Lawrence » Sep 17, 2018 2:08 pm

Interesting to hear your efforts, Bill and Piet. I have a feeling both of you can better the developer demos.
(YOU can call me Larry)

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Piet De Ridder
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Re: Bolder Sounds / Fiddle!

Post by Piet De Ridder » Sep 17, 2018 3:47 pm

One thing that really distracts and annoys me about this fiddle is the fact that some of the notes in the C4 octave (particularly D4 and F4) sound more like a harmonica than a fiddle. Here's a very short example: The Man With The Bolder Fiddle.

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Raymond_Kemp
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Re: Bolder Sounds / Fiddle!

Post by Raymond_Kemp » Sep 17, 2018 4:08 pm

Larry............Adler 😂


Mike Greene
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Re: Bolder Sounds / Fiddle!

Post by Mike Greene » Sep 17, 2018 5:39 pm

Piet De Ridder wrote:
Sep 17, 2018 6:13 am
Why not make this, say, a $300 library and offer something that is at least 10 times as detailed, deep and musical as what is contained in the current version?
Well, first off, "at least 10 times as detailed, deep and musical" means 10 times as much work! ;)

I think the bigger issue is you wouldn't sell very many copies at $300, even if it got a more deluxe treatment. That's a pro price, but how often does a pro need fiddle? Solo violin gets used a lot and is worth the plunge, since there are bound to be a few cues here and there where you can get away with samples. But fiddle ... speaking for myself, I remember hiring one about ten years ago, but none since, so I'd be more likely to hire a real player for less than $300, saving money, time, and most importantly, getting a better performance in the deal.

That's not to say I wouldn't buy it at $300, mind you, but that's the thought process I'd have.

So I think fiddle is one of those instruments that's destined for hobbyists. I can imagine lots and lots of hobbyists thinking that adding fiddle would be fun, and for 50 bucks, buying it.


Lawrence
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Re: Bolder Sounds / Fiddle!

Post by Lawrence » Sep 17, 2018 5:48 pm

Mike, except for the omission of fast strums up the neck ala Dixieland, I find Realibanjo very satisfying. What was the price of that, again? ;)
(YOU can call me Larry)


Mike Greene
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Re: Bolder Sounds / Fiddle!

Post by Mike Greene » Sep 17, 2018 7:11 pm

Lawrence wrote:
Sep 17, 2018 5:48 pm
Mike, except for the omission of fast strums up the neck ala Dixieland, I find Realibanjo very satisfying. What was the price of that, again? ;)
Well, as I mentioned in the other thread, it's probably best I avoid this topic. If I could clean the internet of anything, it would be the RealiBanjo pricing history. :D (Although it was actually Blue that I was going to make a joke about.)

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Piet De Ridder
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Re: Bolder Sounds / Fiddle!

Post by Piet De Ridder » Sep 18, 2018 2:46 am

Mike Greene wrote:
Sep 17, 2018 5:39 pm
Piet De Ridder wrote:
Sep 17, 2018 6:13 am
Why not make this, say, a $300 library and offer something that is at least 10 times as detailed, deep and musical as what is contained in the current version?
Well, first off, "at least 10 times as detailed, deep and musical" means 10 times as much work! ;)
Sure, but why not? The thing I find so depressing about the average $50 library is that the developer has an excuse for limiting him-herself to a library that only scratches the surface — as this Bolder fiddle does, literally and figuratively — because, after all, it’s only a $50 product, and that the customer is instantly made to feel bad should he/she wish to register a complaint or be critical in some way, because, after all, it’s only a $50 product.

And in the end, nobody is really happy with this. (Except those pesky hobbyists. Damn their britches! Damn their duck pond!) One or two exceptions notwithstanding, the response to this library goes from the lacklustre to the negative, which means that we won’t see the developer merrilly jigging about his studio either, pleased with what he’s accomplished.

It’s such a waste really. The typical waste of something done half-right.

And actually, Mike, I’m more than a little convinced that a high-quality fiddle library could have been the autumn hit of 2018 (and beyond). Because the fiddle is *the* emotional voice and one of *the* identifying timbres in anything from Americana (with all of its countless sub-divisions), Canadian folk, over Celtic, Nordic and Baltic — yes, it does Scandi too! —, Yiddish, Central-European (the Balkan and such) and even Asian, North-African and Australian. The fiddle, in short, is everywhere. And not only that, it’s capability to weep even more gently than Harrison’s guitar, makes it also a much desired timbre in anything that has to express feelings of deep sadness and melancholy, or that has to have a flavour of the spiritual, the new-age-y, the mystic and all that sort of thing.

So, I’m sure of it that whoever does a fiddle library right — with insight, sparing no effort and taking the art of sampling as far as it can currently go — will have a resounding and rewarding success on his/her hands. And be ensured of the gratitude of *many* composers-for-the-media.

RealiFiddle, that has a nice ring to it, hasn’t it?

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Lawrence
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Re: Bolder Sounds / Fiddle!

Post by Lawrence » Sep 18, 2018 3:48 am

A thing I did with the Garritan Strad a few years ago. It’s not a long comprehensive piece (just a library track) but the tone of the Bolder doesn’t beat it, imo.

http://www.ljnmusicandsound.com/2012/sour-mashup/
(YOU can call me Larry)


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Re: Bolder Sounds / Fiddle!

Post by Raymond_Kemp » Sep 18, 2018 4:29 am

Larry, I agree.
Pity about the long releases on the banjo though. Each note on a separate string? 😀


Lawrence
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Re: Bolder Sounds / Fiddle!

Post by Lawrence » Sep 18, 2018 4:37 am

I was in a hurry. That banjo is from Colossus :)
(YOU can call me Larry)


Mike Greene
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Re: Bolder Sounds / Fiddle!

Post by Mike Greene » Sep 18, 2018 9:02 pm

Lawrence wrote:
Sep 18, 2018 4:37 am
I was in a hurry. That banjo is from Colossus :)
That Colossus banjo is what motivated me to do RealiBanjo. They didn’t mute the open strings when they sampled each note, so all the open strings ring on all the samples. You constantly get G-chord (open tuning on a banjo) overtones no matter what you play. (I doubt Nick was in the room for that one.)

Cool track, though, and that Strad does sound good.


Mike Greene
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Re: Bolder Sounds / Fiddle!

Post by Mike Greene » Sep 18, 2018 9:22 pm

Piet De Ridder wrote:
Sep 18, 2018 2:46 am
Mike Greene wrote:
Sep 17, 2018 5:39 pm
Piet De Ridder wrote:
Sep 17, 2018 6:13 am
Why not make this, say, a $300 library and offer something that is at least 10 times as detailed, deep and musical as what is contained in the current version?
Well, first off, "at least 10 times as detailed, deep and musical" means 10 times as much work! ;)
Sure, but why not? The thing I find so depressing about the average $50 library is that the developer has an excuse for limiting him-herself to a library that only scratches the surface — as this Bolder fiddle does, literally and figuratively — because, after all, it’s only a $50 product, and that the customer is instantly made to feel bad should he/she wish to register a complaint or be critical in some way, because, after all, it’s only a $50 product.

And in the end, nobody is really happy with this. (Except those pesky hobbyists. Damn their britches! Damn their duck pond!) One or two exceptions notwithstanding, the response to this library goes from the lacklustre to the negative, which means that we won’t see the developer merrilly jigging about his studio either, pleased with what he’s accomplished.

It’s such a waste really. The typical waste of something done half-right.

And actually, Mike, I’m more than a little convinced that a high-quality fiddle library could have been the autumn hit of 2018 (and beyond). Because the fiddle is *the* emotional voice and one of *the* identifying timbres in anything from Americana (with all of its countless sub-divisions), Canadian folk, over Celtic, Nordic and Baltic — yes, it does Scandi too! —, Yiddish, Central-European (the Balkan and such) and even Asian, North-African and Australian. The fiddle, in short, is everywhere. And not only that, it’s capability to weep even more gently than Harrison’s guitar, makes it also a much desired timbre in anything that has to express feelings of deep sadness and melancholy, or that has to have a flavour of the spiritual, the new-age-y, the mystic and all that sort of thing.

So, I’m sure of it that whoever does a fiddle library right — with insight, sparing no effort and taking the art of sampling as far as it can currently go — will have a resounding and rewarding success on his/her hands. And be ensured of the gratitude of *many* composers-for-the-media.
A $50 library does have that "It's cheap so what are you complaining about?" excuse, but I don't think most developers set out to make something with that built-in excuse when they start a project. I'm sure Dennis didn't, because his banjo and mandolin are excellent and in his posts, he does sound very pleased with how he thinks his fiddle sounds. I'm not sure it's the best fiddle I've ever heard, but I'm sure his intention was that it would be. My guess is that his pricing is $50 (on sale from $69, I think) because that's what his other products sell for, rather than so people won't complain.

I know I'm kinda contradicting my earlier point that to do a full blown fiddle would be too much work, but any of these projects can be endless rabbit holes, and you do have to eventually say, "That's good enough," even when you started off with dreams of perfection. Even Realivox Blue, which I'll be the first to admit has many shortcomings, was something I truly tried to take a no-compromises approach with. I spent over a year on it, but eventually had to call it done, otherwise I'd literally still be working on it today, because it still wouldn't be perfect. Nobody wants to do a half-right library (at least not when they start), but 100% right is not possible either, so we're going to be stuck with something in between.

At least with Blue, I had visions of people actually buying it when I was done, so as the months rolled by, I felt like there was a reward at the end, so I kept going. Maybe you're right that there's more of a market for fiddle than I think there is, but my skepticism would have me pulling the plug after a few months, purely from a business salvation standpoint where the risks are getting too high. Especially because there's another important variable - No matter how detailed my sampling and programming, a lot of products die in the market simply because people might not like the timbre of the particular fiddle/player I recorded. How many times have we seen a solo violin or other instrument recorded professionally, but get trashed on the forums? A few months in, you can't help but ask yourself whether people will actually like it. I might think it sounds great, but ... will everyone else?
Piet De Ridder wrote:
Sep 18, 2018 2:46 am
RealiFiddle, that has a nice ring to it, hasn’t it?
Having said everything I just said, I do want to do a fiddle. :P I like the challenge of it, which is ultimately how I decide what instruments to do, and why I don't just keep releasing vocals. The problem is that it will be fun for a month or two, but then doubts and/or boredom will start setting in and ... well, then I'll probably move onto yet another project. (I have about a dozen unreleased sampling projects I've started.) Then with a little luck, I'll get fiddle-fever again a few months or years later and start up again, then possibly finish it. (I'm truly the worst guy to be running a business like this.)


Lawrence
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Re: Bolder Sounds / Fiddle!

Post by Lawrence » Sep 18, 2018 10:03 pm

Realibanjo is excellent at a very reasonable price. The Bolder mandolin is awesome for a very reasonable price...sounds fantastic and easy to use. All of Tracy Collins Indiginus guitars are very very good at around $50. These are plectrum instruments which are clearly easier to sample, none of that nasty legato stuff to deal with, but I also bought Passion Flute for, what, $79 on sale? Rhapsody Percussion for around $100? Blue for $100?

I guess I now fall in a strange category-I write a lot and send a lot of tracks in but my music income is pretty low, so I'm not a hobbyist but I don't feel like my business supports more than one or two multi hundred dollars a year. For me, these one-offs that I use all of the time are a godsend.I imagine a much more comprehensive, easy to use fiddle will be more expensive than that and worth it.
(YOU can call me Larry)

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chillbot
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Re: Bolder Sounds / Fiddle!

Post by chillbot » Sep 18, 2018 10:42 pm

I need a fiddle so bad. And I would use it ALL THE TIME. If you write in a wide variety of styles, it's amazing how often a fiddle is a perfect fit. Not just celtic or folk or country, it's actually an amazingly versatile generically-ethnic instrument. It exudes mixolydian out of every pore. OK I'm exaggerating, maybe. But I'm relegated to trying to make the very small amount of available loops work, which is always tough.

Too bad, much respect for Bolder Sounds, which I've used since back in the days like Lawrence.

But the demos don't sound like anything remotely usable to me. Not at $50 probably not at $15. And the demos are typically better than I'm able to do, at least they are supposed to be.


Lawrence
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Re: Bolder Sounds / Fiddle!

Post by Lawrence » Sep 19, 2018 7:15 am

I'm not trying to rag on the Bolder fiddle, but as I said previously, it didn't move me off my primary instrument for this, the finicky Garritan Strad.

This took me a half hr, and if the instrument wasn't such a note hanging pain in the butt, it would have been quicker. I've ed'd it some here and added a little Valhalla 'verb, It's not the most pleasing tone, yet the agility that I seek in the turns is there:

http://www.ljnmusicandsound.com/2018/ga ... as-fiddle/
(YOU can call me Larry)

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