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Can you be objective about your material?
Posted: Jun 08, 2025 12:49 pm
by Lawrence
Personally, I go in phases.
There are times during which I find my own songs and compositions quite felicitous. At other times, I wonder why I ever thought I could write a note of music, everything sounds bad to me.
The truth, of course, lies somewhere in between for most people.
My recent songwriting partner Abby and I started writing together with no preconceptions about what sort of material we would write. Our main shared interest was in sync placements. That’s evolved somewhat and we’re about to release an “album” (whatever the heck THAT means nowadays.) We were a few songs short, so I decided to look back through my catalog and I did a lot of listening. Some of my songs were substantially better than I remembered, some substantially worse but as a whole, it was an interesting experiment and a productive learning experience. I ended up finding three songs that I had never fleshed out completely, did some work on them, and Abby sang them. I’m quite pleased with the results.
I also found plenty of songs starts and full productions that were bad enough to make me shudder either lyrically or musically, and demo mixes were terrible (lots of those.)
Do y’all feel you’ve achieved the proper balance of self appreciation and self loathing, musically speaking?
Re: Can you be objective about your material?
Posted: Jun 08, 2025 4:40 pm
by Guy Rowland
I re-listened to that 90s lo-fi indie library album a while back. It was an interesting experience. I liked quite a lot, a few failures.
I seem to care more about lyrics than I used to. I have no appreciation of poetry at all (I am an absolute philistine), but I can tell clumsy lyric-writing and I've done my fair share. One song felt like "now I'm going to write a song about THIS issue", which is never good.
I'm so pleased when something passes muster a few years later. I quite enjoy writing in character - not so much story songs but I like writing from a different perspective to my own. Probably the writer in me.
As for the music side of things, I find I listen to and enjoy collaborations more than just me on my own.
Re: Can you be objective about your material?
Posted: Jun 09, 2025 4:32 am
by Daryl
I think that I can only be objective when enough time has passed that I don't remember the composing process. After that, I think I'm fairly objective. I have learned to squash that voice that tells me I'm no good. I have learned to accept my place, and am content with that.
The other thing is to remind myself why I write what I do. If it's solely to make money, then the income is the only thing that matters. If it's a combination of doing what I want, and making money, then I bear that in mind when "judging" myself. If it's just because I wanted to write it, then part of the process is enjoying it, so even if it's no good, it doesn't matter.
Re: Can you be objective about your material?
Posted: Jun 09, 2025 8:18 am
by RobS
I can't stand listening to my music, in the immediate. In that sense I'm not objective, because I despise all that I produce, even if some of it objectively must be good. If enough time has passed, and better still if I don't know it's my music I'm listening to, I become pretty objective and make better judgements... so I will be objective on what I'm writing now in a few years.
Re: Can you be objective about your material?
Posted: Jun 09, 2025 12:21 pm
by Luke
Daryl wrote: ↑Jun 09, 2025 4:32 am
I think that I can only be objective when enough time has passed that I don't remember the composing process. After that, I think I'm fairly objective. I have learned to squash that voice that tells me I'm no good. I have learned to accept my place, and am content with that.
The other thing is to remind myself why I write what I do. If it's solely to make money, then the income is the only thing that matters. If it's a combination of doing what I want, and making money, then I bear that in mind when "judging" myself. If it's just because I wanted to write it, then part of the process is enjoying it, so even if it's no good, it doesn't matter.
This strikes me as a wise approach, and very balanced way of being. I vacillate very often along similar lines, with the added angle that music inherently is borne from our experiences and emotions, informing what we do subconsciously, so who am I to judge what's in there? If it moves me, there must be a reason for it, ergo, it fulfilled a purpose. Low bar that one.
Re: Can you be objective about your material?
Posted: Jun 09, 2025 2:26 pm
by Lawrence
I always enjoy hearing that genius composers (Daryl, Rob, just to name two in this thread) have the same struggles with self doubt as I, a worker in the trenches, experience.
I also enjoy the tales of overcoming those voices, which one has to do to carry on.
Re: Can you be objective about your material?
Posted: Jun 10, 2025 4:51 am
by Daryl
Lawrence wrote: ↑Jun 09, 2025 2:26 pm
I always enjoy hearing that genius composers (Daryl, Rob, just to name two in this thread) have the same struggles with self doubt as I, a worker in the trenches, experience.
I also enjoy the tales of overcoming those voices, which one has to do to carry on.
Pffft, I can't speak for Rob, but I'm no genius composer. Just an average working guy (but not Guy, obviously).
In all seriousness, Larry, I've never met a good, creative person in any field, who wasn't plagued by self doubt. The ones who are not, tend not to be very good.
Re: Can you be objective about your material?
Posted: Jun 10, 2025 7:43 am
by Guy Rowland
Guy Rowland wrote: ↑Jun 10, 2025 7:40 am
Self doubt and confidence are both essential but disastrous in high enough doses.
Re: Can you be objective about your material?
Posted: Jun 10, 2025 7:44 am
by Guy Rowland
Guy Rowland wrote: ↑Jun 10, 2025 7:40 am
Self doubt and confidence are both essential but disastrous in high enough doses.
Re: Can you be objective about your material?
Posted: Jun 10, 2025 7:44 am
by Guy Rowland
Self doubt and confidence are both essential but disastrous in high enough doses.
Re: Can you be objective about your material?
Posted: Jun 10, 2025 8:11 am
by RobS
deserved to be reiterated!
Re: Can you be objective about your material?
Posted: Jun 10, 2025 8:15 am
by RobS
Lawrence wrote: ↑Jun 09, 2025 2:26 pm
I always enjoy hearing that genius composers (Daryl, Rob, just to name two in this thread) have the same struggles with self doubt as I, a worker in the trenches, experience.
I also enjoy the tales of overcoming those voices, which one has to do to carry on.
not a genius either, Larry, but thanks for your respect...
Re: Can you be objective about your material?
Posted: Jun 10, 2025 9:36 am
by Tanuj Tiku
It is hard to be objective completely when composing but with time you can hear the problems and some good bits.
I do suffer from serious self-doubt which has actually increased in recent years for some reason. Sometimes it is overwhelming but I have been told that one has to learn to accept it and know that it will always keep coming back and so you find a way to deal with it.
Most of what we do is a lonely process so it can be even worse at times but you have to deal with it one way or another.
I don't know what the opposite of this feels like except that I am usually suspicious of extreme confidence.
Re: Can you be objective about your material?
Posted: Jun 10, 2025 9:45 am
by Lawrence
Your self doubt is unearned, Tanuj.
.
Let’s face it , though, it’s a thing across the spectrum, affecting most creatives.
In an extreme case, I wonder if it’s what killed Johann Johannsen (pardon the spelling.)
Re: Can you be objective about your material?
Posted: Jun 10, 2025 3:39 pm
by Ashermusic
I think I can, but that may be self-delusion.
Re: Can you be objective about your material?
Posted: Jun 26, 2025 3:21 am
by GR Baumann
Lawrence wrote: ↑Jun 08, 2025 12:49 pmDo y’all feel you’ve achieved the proper balance of self appreciation and self loathing, musically speaking?
Do not be fooled, this ain't Larry, this is a deep fake, and a psychological trick question by GAIA (global artificial intelligence administration) Your answer will be used to score your risk potential to society at large. If the door bell rings and an officer, or five, from ICE stand on your porch you are required to cooperate fully.
Re: Can you be objective about your material?
Posted: Jun 26, 2025 10:50 am
by RobS
GR Baumann wrote: ↑Jun 26, 2025 3:21 am
Lawrence wrote: ↑Jun 08, 2025 12:49 pmDo y’all feel you’ve achieved the proper balance of self appreciation and self loathing, musically speaking?
Do not be fooled, this ain't Larry, this is a deep fake, and a psychological trick question by GAIA (global artificial intelligence administration) Your answer will be used to score your risk potential to society at large. If the door bell rings and an officer, or five, from ICE stand on your porch you are required to cooperate fully.
Re: Can you be objective about your material?
Posted: Jun 26, 2025 2:13 pm
by Geoff Grace
This begs the question: Can anyone be objective about a largely subjective art form, such as music?
We can be relatively objective about proficiency on an instrument and other building blocks of music creation; but I can guarantee that any of our musical heroes will be met by a shrug from a large segment of the population. No one is universally revered because we all have different tastes.
That said, there’s a lot of music that pleases a great many people; and I dare say that we’ve each made music that pleases someone. To be at our best, the challenge is striking a balance between self-confidence and self-criticism. With too much criticism, we shoot every idea down; and nothing ever gets done. With too much confidence, nothing is ever improved; and we’ll never reach our potential. Like others here, I’ve wrestled with finding the right balance; but I think it’s fair to say that if we’re here discussing this, then we’ve had enough success to keep going.
Best,
Geoff
Re: Can you be objective about your material?
Posted: Jun 26, 2025 4:33 pm
by Lawrence
These days, most of my self flagellation comes when I’m not working enough. Pushing past “lack of inspiration” or “ran out of creative juices” are poor excuses for not sitting down and doing work.
(Speaking only for myself, of course.)
As to general subjectivity, some think there can be an objective “good” or “bad” past personal opinion. I wouldn’t want to debate that particular subject again.
Re: Can you be objective about your material?
Posted: Jun 27, 2025 10:30 am
by progger
Some good questions and responses here, folks.
For me, personally, I feel overwhelmingly like I cannot be objective about basically anything regarding myself. What I write, what I play, what I look like, I've come to terms with the fact that I'll never know how myself or my work is perceived by another being, and frankly I'm ok with that. The process of playing, writing, and improvising in a musical context is joyful, so that's why I've made my living out of it, and enough other people like it that I can pay the bills... Success!
Like others have pointed out, though, I think I can be a bit more objective when some time has passed (even just a sleep cycle or two). So I do enjoy going back through and hearing sketches of ideas I did in a hotel room three months ago, for example, and then kind of instinctively knowing how to develop the good bits into something real.
Also like others, I go back and hear my own finished releases from time to time and often hear things I'd do differently now (that's ok, it's inevitable). Sometimes I go back and hear something that brings me more joy today than when I released it... Bonus success!
Re: Can you be objective about your material?
Posted: Jun 28, 2025 2:21 am
by progger
Just did some of that "listen back to stuff I started ages ago" thing tonight... As expected, plenty of trash that won't go anywhere, but some pleasant discoveries too!
Re: Can you be objective about your material?
Posted: Jun 28, 2025 2:57 am
by Guy Rowland
Did we discuss listening to things with others?
Forgive a short thread cross-pollination, but Bono said he always plays new stuff to his milkman. He doesn't care what the milkman thinks, but listening to your own work in the presence of someone else - or a group of people - is absolutely a different experience. I find I hear it totally differently.
It can be awfully sobering.
A trick I do (this applies to writing and all sorts too) is to IMAGINE a specific person sat next to me listening / reading / watching. This is particularly helpful doing this imagining your execs and producers!
Re: Can you be objective about your material?
Posted: Jun 28, 2025 10:23 am
by Lawrence
Guy Rowland wrote: ↑Jun 28, 2025 2:57 am
Did we discuss listening to things with others?
Forgive a short thread cross-pollination, but Bono said he always plays new stuff to his milkman. He doesn't care what the milkman thinks, but listening to your own work in the presence of someone else - or a group of people - is absolutely a different experience. I find I hear it totally differently.
It can be awfully sobering.
A trick I do (this applies to writing and all sorts too) is to IMAGINE a specific person sat next to me listening / reading / watching. This is particularly helpful doing this imagining your execs and producers!
That’s a good insight, Guy. I tend to send new things out to a few professional friends people who will respond gently but honestly. My gf is a good resource as well-like my wife before her, she tends to tell me how wonderful I am and then relentlessly dissect what’s wrong with the piece
Re: Can you be objective about your material?
Posted: Jun 28, 2025 10:28 am
by progger
Yes, the perception that someone else is listening changes things dramatically. Context and environment affect our psychology in uncountable ways, and our auditory faculties are so immensely fickle. Something sounds great one minute and then awful when the door opens and the wife walks in. Or if I just bring a stereo mix out to the living room and hear it on a Bluetooth speaker.
My writing (and mixing, and everything else) benefits tremendously from changing environment. Listening source, for sure, but also the physical place where I am, who else is or isn't around, etc.
.