Audiobro Modern Scoring Brass: some memory tips

[KyleJudkins]

well due to time management(and batch resaving a lot of my libraries yesterday) I got my template up with a few minutes before I have to go to work... seems like batch resaving fixed the problem?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/swll1ci4igwtd ... 2.mp3?dl=0

sorry piet - you might have to cross that off your no list



piet this weekend I can try to shoot you some stems - I just suck at making music/mockups in general. Maybe ill be an ass and find that midi for verta's SM demo hahaha

[KyleJudkins]

I was trying to figure the divisi thing out myself... maybe if the RTs are still playing it can detect it still... either way - works better than I'd expected(although I wont use it for anything but sketching)

That's my thought as well. Still, it certainly speeds up the process of writing! One thing I'm a bit baffled by is they haven't provided a patch with all four solo horns as a divisi. Instead they have Horn 1, 3 and 5+6 as one patch, and Horn 2, 4 and 7+8 as the other. As far as I can tell there is no way to set up one patch with all four solo horns on it's own.

I actually just use that patch at the moment - 4 horns is fine for me... Although I think there is certainly some limitations doing it this way when it comes to divisi.

That said, 1+1+2+2 is a good format... allows you 6 horns with 2 part or 3 part divisi - but ill have to program them yourself.

[KyleJudkins]

Here is a zip with the midi and stems of that horn example.

I have the decca center a few DB more than the L + R - and I have the decca center panned a little to the left(as well as the close panned to the left a little)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y10ntjo5rxan3az/horn.zip?dl=0

in my example - I used the surround for the bulk of it. but this is 100% raw unprocessed. I left the detune off - and modulated dynamics with cc1, sizzle with cc2, and I set the attacks to velocity. (towards the end I try to play legato staying in 1 zone at a time, but i'd have to better tune the settings to my velocity curve/playing) So some abrupt sounding marcatos thrown in during the accented - and some accented thrown in while I tried to play soft enough to trigger the soft attack.

the marcato is not the fastest legato - so it's quite noticeable when it jumps in. Which is great - because marcato swells in nicely. Dress that with whatever reverb/eq/post you want. Hope that holds you over guy. For a legato patch - it's quite good for writing. Not as playable as SM, but I would definitely put it on almost on part with Caspian/adventure brass, just using the legato patch. I'd imagine the sustain patch would work even better for snappier melodies - much closer to how adventure brass/Caspian act.

keep in mind also that's just 4 horns, that's the 1 + 3 + 56 patch. there is still another 2 + 4 + 7/8 patch.

you can also activate the 7/8 on the same horn patch (so 1 + 3 + 56 +78)

best I could do before heading to work - hope you guys find it useful. Those who feel like sharing the zip on VIC - you've got my permission(really on anything I share unless I specifically ask to keep it here)

[NoamL]

Those sound MUCH smoother, Kyle. Thanks for doing a 2nd demo!

I was worried this would be like Hollywood Brass. I can't use that library anymore because the difference between velocity 89 and 91 is literally a vertical jump from mf to f in most of the short articulations.

[NoamL]

Horns sound pretty well programmed as well. I think the 3 attack types is gonna be a game changer. Berlin Brass has that as well, but it has nothing like this dynamic range and playability.

[KyleJudkins]

Horns sound pretty well programmed as well. I think the 3 attack types is gonna be a game changer. Berlin Brass has that as well, but it has nothing like this dynamic range and playability.

honestly I figured I would mix and match

like 3a btb, 2 + 2 bb/msb horns and 2+1 tpts.

having the double tongue would reaaaaaaaaallly help.

I wish all libraries worked that way

also, I set round Robin's to linear instead of random, and there are 9.

time to buy CSB and use 1 horn from bb, 1 from cinebrass, 1 from msb, and 1 from csb.

the headaches lmao

[NoamL]

Everyone talks about the accordion effect from making sections out of soloists but I rarely get that from CSB. I think it's just something everyone picked up on in HWB (where it's obvious) and assumed that it would automatically be a defect of any soloists+ensembles library.

My point being, the ability to do perfect & authentic divisi writing isn't a selling point for this library for me. Not if the sound isn't otherwise really great. Already got burned with Berlin Brass.

[KyleJudkins]

oddly I forgot to open the intuition series at all

weird lol.

well if anyone else gets a demo, don't upload it straight to vic because yaboi can't hear it.

[Guy Rowland]

Thanks Kyle. The shorts are much better of course, but I'm still hearing that sort of truncated effect at the end which I think is down to the CC suddenly dropping at this point (at least I hope so). It's not a super-flattering tone at ff even so, is it? There is this kind of metallic quality that others have spoken of in the ff register. Here's a very quick export of the shortest CineBrass Trumpet shorts as a comparison, out of the box sound - https://www.dropbox.com/s/k476th50y9tt0 ... t.wav?dl=0

Similarly those Horns don't sound stellar either. I took your midi Kyle (thanks v much btw) of just the first two phrases and put them through the 2 horn CB patch - https://www.dropbox.com/s/rbi4y7omsl9a6 ... s.wav?dl=0 . Now, one ultra-important thing to note, I reduced CC1 significantly, especially in the first phrase. This isn't really a representative A/B therefore, and I'd love to hear MSB through that same passage with a fuller CC1 range. I found almost the entire midi to be over half way in travel so can't really assess the lower registers at this point Kyle. But you'll hear the kind of thing I'm listening out for, that beautiful richness and mellow tone that the lower registers can give.

With the ff horns meanwhile, that raspiness is a very difficult thing to get right I've found. The old EW Symphonic Orchestra was horrible, the buzz was really grating. MSB doesn't sound that bad, but again I don't find it especially pleasing either. CB, by contrast, sounds excellent to my ears - at the end of the 2nd phrase in my example you can hear it shine before it dies away back to mf.

However, one interesting other comparison is that MSB was far more precise to the midi notes themselves. You'll hear in the 2nd phrase the notes stop being legato in Kyle's example, whereas with CB they pretty much stay connected - I didn't adjust note timings at all. And its MSB that is playing it correctly, CB is pretty sloppy here in terms of precision. But that said, accurate or not the net effect is far more pleasing to my ears with CB. I have to jump across to the CB short artics if I'm to pull off anything like the effect Kyle is going for there. The legato patch is wonderful for slow to medium flowing lines but pretty hopeless for anything sprightly.

I think Audiobro have made a possibly fatal mistake by scrimping on the demos, no doubt a casualty of tweaking the instruments themselves right to the last minute. We need really thorough walkthroughs to properly demonstrate the tone across the dynamic ranges, the vibrato effect, the ensemble building and so on, all really fundamental to the library and still MIA two days after launch. I have a horrible feeling that MSB could end up being a salutatory tale of how to botch a product launch - 10 years in development when another 2 weeks of prep would have made all the difference. As it is they are playing catch up with a lot of extremely unflattering user examples posted online, and those initial poor impressions will be tough to shift. But on the other hand, one does begin to wonder if the reason why there are so many unflattering examples and so few positive ones is that this is a library that requires a great deal of work to make really shine.

All in, I find myself backing away from MSB, but not so far that I'm out the door just yet. The two big selling points for me are precision and the wealth of solo articulations which in combination with divisi could make for a great combo. Everyone, including I, seem to love the tuba tone, but the rest feels more like something you live with than something you love. I'm still hoping - almost against hope - that there is more to be revealed in terms of tone for the majority of the library.

[KyleJudkins]

cinebrass tone is going to be near impossible to beat.

it's just such a gorgeous room.

I love the darker warmer sound of teldex, but probably because I can't write a major piece to save my life.

that said, this library doesn't really aim to compete with CB, or CSB. its essentially a far more manageable SM/Berlin brass. Berlin needs exactly 0 processing - but it's less nimble. that said, game plan is to attempt to mix and match to see if I can Frankensemble something that is greater than the sum of its parts.

I'll try to add the other 2 horns and toss it through some todd ao to compare

I get out in an hour

[KyleJudkins]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8re9gje559o25 ... b.mp3?dl=0

no idea if that's useful at all - no idea if it sounds any good, I just threw some reverb on, and pulled it back until it didn't seem too wet. I also activated the other 2 horns, so it's 6 horns - and used todd ao… I COULD have pulled up cinebrass and tried to match it manually - but either way - ive got a lot to check out in the ~45 minutes I should be awake before I go to sleep so I can get up and go to work tomorrow as a functioning adult haha. But I will have more time this weekend - maybe ill do some comparisons between BB/CB/MSB/CSB if I'm not still fiddling around with MSB

and full disclosure - my ears don't work right now, so I really mean that when I say "I don't know if it sounds any good"

I matched one of the loaded up the bass trombone solo - panned the mics - put some haas on it, then dropped sus Imm from BB bass trombone - matched the tree in volume and then added some dynamic range so it had the same curve as MSB - and it sounds like a 2a btb to me.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zscnzrvey01si ... a.mp3?dl=0 I'm just noodling ofcourse. But it might be how I initially planned to use it. As weird as that sounds - Instead of mic blending for EQ balance - I can brighten BB with MSB.

and another example matching BB and MSB btb's but with double tongue(msb) and staccatissimo(BB)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wi1q9hij62zvj ... s.mp3?dl=0

adds that double tongue variation(something bb doesn't do well - outside of prerecorded 16ths)

[Guy Rowland]

Thanks Kyle, those horns definitely sounding improved to my ears. Nice to hear the variation in attacks too, that's a definite plus over CB.

[KyleJudkins]

Thanks Kyle, those horns definitely sounding improved to my ears. Nice to hear the variation in attacks too, that's a definite plus over CB.

well im way past my bed time - like I said, I'll be toying around this weekend.

the suprising thing is that because it's drier/tighter - it seems to add punch when combine with BB.

In that example though with the bass trombones - theres 0 reverb, just some fully external volume and delay. I totally feel you on CSB horns though - feels like aggravated battery, and I'd understand not wanting to jump ship immediately for ANYTHING. That said though - All of these products CAN make good music. Finally reached the point where brass is catching up to where strings was - and that's always nice.

[Tanuj Tiku]

Very interesting release from Audio Bro. They have gone a bit retro with very much a John Williams/Shawn Murphy style sound and scope.

Here is snippet from Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of crystal skull:



Daneil Beijbom has done a great demo and It sounds close in tonality and soundscape.

It does not sound larger than life like other libraries which is the hallmark of mock-ups usually. I also find many modern scores to have a much larger sound. I believe many composers now regularly leave some of their samples in the mix.

Having said all of that, I am not sure if it breaks any new ground and how useful it will be, if you already have a few libraries. I am waiting to hear more. It does sound like MSB does not cause much sample room build up. May be their individual player recording method has paid off.

I like the attack feature - very important for brass instruments. This is a great feature. Perhaps, some libraries like Performance Samples have already covered this and you can mock this up as well with East West and other libraries. It remains to be heard how consistent and responsive all of this is and whether it adds to mock-ups in a very meaningful way which is very different from other libraries.

The precision that many people find, missing could simply be a matter of balancing the mic positions for critical passages. Shawn Murphy regularly does this in many JW recordings. It is somewhat a standard technique in many pure orchestral style recordings. This can help with the fff blasting sound as well. It could simply be a matter of setting up the dynamic range and modulation against volume, inter-instrumental balances and mic positions.

I am not sure, if I need this but I am interested!

[Lawrence]

Tanuj, I can't remember-did you go for Alex Walbank's CSB?

[Guy Rowland]

Maybe worth popping over to VI-C for this post - https://vi-control.net/community/thread ... st-4379159 , since I can't directly link the files. Really excellent comparison between a piece written for CSB and now translated to MSB by Duncan Krummel. That's strongly re-awakened by interest in MSB.

The thing for me with CSB is that although it sounds really terrific, I feel it overlaps far too much with CineBrass Core and Pro. I'm not sure it gives me much that's genuinely different, I really don't know why I'd be buying it. MSB however is an entirely different animal. The example I link here I think is really instructive in what I perhaps always hoped the difference might be, because I think what goes for CSB (very much the brass library du jour, isn't it?) goes for CineBrass. The tone with MSB sounds lovely here now for one, but additionally there's a real refinement I hear without the usual slightly over-hyped samples-in-a-big-room build up you so often get. This very much echoes Tanuj's thoughts above I think. its a bit more old school in a good way. Best of all - it really ISN'T sterile-sounding, which had become a fear for me. Sounds like it has character too.

[Lawrence]

Thanks for that, Guy. Wow-both libraries sound very good in Duncan's examples. Two great choices.

I don't NEED new brass, yet the pleasure of playing those samples and integrating them into my workflow is very tempting.

[KyleJudkins]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k244s07k0gqm0 ... i.mp3?dl=0

another horns noodling - this time the 6 horns from earlier with divisi turned back on - I backed off the altiverb, and parallel EQ'd some of the top end back in.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k244s07k0gqm0 ... i.mp3?dl=0

that's some double tongue CC controlled going through the dynamics in divisi(using some sizzle)

[Guy Rowland]

Sounding pretty good there, Kyle, thanks for posting.

Pedant's corner - I'm hearing some lossy compression artefacts, I think your mp3s are 32 bit bit 128k, you'd get smaller files but better quality if you made them 16bit but 192k.

[Tanuj Tiku]

Tanuj, I can't remember-did you go for Alex Walbank's CSB?

Larry, I did not get Cinematic Studio Brass. I had a huge problem with the extremely harsh demos. But, I was very pleased to know that it was the processing after all. In the walk through, it sounds very natural.

A friend of mine has set-up at my studio to help out on a project and he has bought Cinematic Studio Brass. So, hopefully I can get a hands on overview in the next few days.

I am thinking of picking up Cinematic studio strings though

[FriFlo]

Larry, I did not get Cinematic Studio Brass. I had a huge problem with the extremely harsh demos. But, I was very pleased to know that it was the processing after all. In the walk through, it sounds very natural.

A friend of mine has set-up at my studio to help out on a project and he has bought Cinematic Studio Brass. So, hopefully I can get a hands on overview in the next few days.

I am thinking of picking up Cinematic studio strings though

In case you are using Berlin Brass - CSB is exactly filling the gaps that this library leaves for me in almost any way.
Both sound very good IMO!
CSB:
- a bit less reverberant recording studio sound - exactly the right balance between sounding good out of the box with enough flexibility to adjust it with processing
- easy library with limited but good choice of basic instruments and articulations
- very good dynamic crossfading (well, it never gets perfect, but it doesn't get much better than this IMO)
- full range dynamics
- live playing is a bit difficult, as it is with all good sounding libraries IMO - there just is this delayed reaction, which makes it nearly impossible to play something tightly - with this one that difficulty is very obvious, though ...
BB:
- very reverberant - a little to much for my taste - but the wealth of microphone options still gives you decent flexibility
- full "divisi" library but including sections!
- vast amount of articulations, including almost all the mutes you could think of (if you buy the expansions, too!)
- not all but a lot of additional more rarely used Brass (if you buy the expansions, too!)
- a bit limited regarding dynamics in the upper range, but I usually do not run out of juice using alternative articulations that go up to ff (only the sustains and legatos are pretty much limited up tp f)
- unfortunately, there are some inconsistencies between the separate soloist patches that make it a lot of work to exchange parts between the individual players - I hope they will do an update on this some day ...
- add Glory Days and you have the perfect companion for mocking up bigbandish orchestra and even more options with mutes and articulations

I would recommend anyone to get CSB! Never mind, wether this is your first or 15th brass library. I don't think many will regret it. Berlin Brass is really great, if you have the money for all the content and really want a vast library with lots of choices. Together, they are perfect companions.

[FriFlo]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k244s07k0gqm0 ... i.mp3?dl=0

another horns noodling - this time the 6 horns from earlier with divisi turned back on - I backed off the altiverb, and parallel EQ'd some of the top end back in.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k244s07k0gqm0 ... i.mp3?dl=0

that's some double tongue CC controlled going through the dynamics in divisi(using some sizzle)

Kyle, I am relieved to see the earlier missing dynamic layers got fixed by a batch resave. The Altiverb thrown at it also did wonders in making it sound better. There are quite some problems still there, though! Some mentioned the metallic thing in the upper frequencies, but I also hear something weird lower frequencies on the low horn notes, that sound very dull. For most notes, the alter helped a lot, for the low horn notes, it still sounds kind of flat and artificial.
Also, I noticed in your horn legato post, the release samples did often stick out drastically. Might this be related only to the polyphonic playing script and some bugs?
I am in kind of the same position as Piet ... what I currently have leaves actually little to desire and the stuff that MSB does is kind of interesting in that regard (polyphonic playing, more instruments, a few instruments, that aren to included in BB, ...) but it would have to be a stellar library in order to convince me to buy it. For now, I definitely won't buy it, but I might in the future unless the problems I mentioned turn out to be unfixable due to the recordings ...
LASS actually sounds quite terrible, if you judge the pure sound of the samples! It was IMO the combination of dryer sound, divisi capabilities and great scripting and playability that made it kind of a lucky coincident. If MSB was recorded on the same stage, it is no wonder to me that that would not result in a good sounding library. You just cannot apply the same concept from a sting library to a brass one. Maybe they didn't! But it is pretty obvious to me that AudioBro seems to have done wrong, what Cinematic Sampling has done exactly right ... which is not to say, that there might be aspects that are better about MSB ... to me it just seems, not the ones that really matter a lot when you just have some demos and videos to judge ...

[KyleJudkins]

I don't know flo…. if CSB had been recorded at MGM sony stage >.>

I oddly still feel like cinebrass being kind of old scripting wise is such a shame. Track down doesn't sound terrible - but there is something about it that bothers me about CSS/CSB. It's like a generic soda or something - that's 80% of the way there - but has a dull aftertaste. I like the smoothness of the sustain/legato crossfades - but I'm not overly fond of the legato - or the low dynamics.

That said, horns really scream - so it's a fun patch regardless.

Getting MSB to sound really good is going to take a lot of external work - kind of the same issue with samplemodelling - just a "more" tolerable source. But that also creates a whole new problem to solve, rather than SMs

A bunch of solo centered instruments being turned into an ensemble without sounding smooshed into 2 dimensions - something that unmistakably reminds me of SM. I'm convinced it can be done - but I'm not sure it's worth the effort for ME compared to simply trying to make it supplement berlin brass.

I've got some techniques to add edge to my berlin brass - but This would essentially allow me to create a tighter ensemble - add a bit of fluidity in lines, and create the effect of double tonging.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/blf77se1upt5zd0/why.mp3?dl=0

but just for you noam - berlin brass with all the fffffff in the most crude hackjob possible. Someone's lips somewhere just started bleeding.

[Confuzzly]

A french horn walkthrough has been posted by Audiobro here:

https://audiobro.com/msb-horns-a-closer-look/

Sounds quite good to me. Probably my favorite horns in any library that I can recall.

This video may have given me the nudge I needed to buy it, but it is late and I don't like making big purchases late at night so I'll see how I feel tomorrow.

[Guy Rowland]

Thanks Josh, and here's the inline link:



And definitely sounding very good indeed. For the solo plaintive its still not as emotive as the original solo CineBrass horn, but its massively better than their Pro solo horn for parts that need more range. Again, there's a feeling that there is a level of control here that is certainly beyond my current arsenal, and I'm not hearing any tonal issues at all.

I've still not quite hit the tipping point to buy yet and probably for the same reason as you Josh, now keen to hear this level of detail for Trumpets.