Sadly I am simply not enamored with the Spitfire player yet, and because of libraries like the Whitacre Choir and the Labs, I’ve still had to use it more than I would like. To me, it just feels underdeveloped yet, and sometimes even the output levels aren’t sufficient, especially with some softer articulations. In fairness, Spitfire hasn’t been developing their player for as long as NI has worked on Kontakt, but one still can’t ignore the fact that Spitfire has a long way to go to catch up.
As for Spitfire’s love for their homeland, well I really have no problem with it. But with a last name like Lancaster, I guess one might expect me to say that, even though my ancestors came to Canada from England over 200 years ago! Regardless, some of us here in the “colonies” still feel a strong attachment to ‘Queen and country’ on occasion. “Rule Britannia”....eh? Having said that, I also don’t care very much about what country or developer a library comes from if it’s a good product.
Well ever since The Beatles there are lots and lots of Americans who are Anglophiles and Diana and Downtown Abbey have increased the number. Brexit hasn’t tarnished it much...yet.
Charlie Clouser: " I have no interest in, and no need to create, "realistic orchestral mockups". That way lies madness."
The sound of their Symphonic Orchestra they describe as: '[Air Lyndhurst] is known for it's large and reverberant sound, very modern and "hollywood-esque".'
For BBC SO: 'The sound is very open and characteristic, but well treated and not as reverberant as AIR Lyndhurst. Think more 'classic' Orchestra rather than instant film score!'
If the BBC SO library indeed goes for the classic orchestra sound, for me that would be intriguing.
The "instant Hollywood film score" thing is nonsense. If you go to a scoring stage in LA and Al Schmidt is the engineer your film score sounds different than if it's Allan Meyerson and different than in other soundstages and studios in LA. I like drier libraries in general because of the greater flexibility.
Charlie Clouser: " I have no interest in, and no need to create, "realistic orchestral mockups". That way lies madness."
FriFlo wrote: ↑Sep 01, 2019 4:37 am(...) the design copied from Deutsche Grammophon. (...)
Fri, maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, but I can't find any design similarities between Spitfire and Deutsche Grammophon. Can you post an example of what you mean? Thanks!
Guy Rowland wrote: ↑Sep 01, 2019 9:44 am
That was the original BML design, right? Sure they’re on record as saying it was the “inspiration”.
They openly said that? Phew, I am relieved! :-) I clearly remember thinking of DG when seeing that BML Design for the first time. But in comparison, the similarities are not as striking as I remembered it. Well, if they said it, I obviously didn’t hallucinate. ;-)
FriFlo wrote: ↑Sep 01, 2019 10:39 pm (...) They openly said that? (...)
Yes, they said it. Did a little search yesterday and it seems that the BML design was indeed partly inspired by the late-Fifties vinyl jackets of Deutsche Grammophon. That, plus a few old Michael Caine movies and the work of the 19th century photographer Roger Fenton, Spitfire said. The topic came up in the 2013 Sable announcement thread on VI-C. Apparently, it was the sleeve pictured below (DGG LPM18222) which was used as a sort of template for the yellow BML-header.
Yep, I remember when I thought this to be a borderline case of riding the elephant, impostering, using deeply memorised brand-signs of quality in audio, on purpose of course, and them being Spitfire, with one in particular being extremely pretentious, it did not surprise me, not a sausage.
Two new demos up on Spitfires website. Though I wouldn't call them weak in any way, to my ears especially Oliver Patrice Weder's mockup has its share of slightly problematic passages.
Linos wrote: ↑Sep 02, 2019 10:29 am
Two new demos up on Spitfires website. Though I wouldn't call them weak in any way, to my ears especially Oliver Patrice Weder's mockup has it's share of slightly problematic passages.
Just caught up with them. Larry, it's safe to listen to these!
I concur, Linos. Not terrible or anything close, they're both pretty damn good really. But they are mortal, and therefore I was less wowed by the intrinsic differences between BBC and other libraries. It's not vanished, don't get me wrong, but its a helpful correction to anyone who was tempted to think that this would produce magic.
Linos wrote: ↑Sep 02, 2019 10:29 am
Two new demos up on Spitfires website. Though I wouldn't call them weak in any way, to my ears especially Oliver Patrice Weder's mockup has it's share of slightly problematic passages.
Just caught up with them. Larry, it's safe to listen to these!
I concur, Linos. Not terrible or anything close, they're both pretty damn good really. But they are mortal, and therefore I was less wowed by the intrinsic differences between BBC and other libraries. It's not vanished, don't get me wrong, but its a helpful correction to anyone who was tempted to think that this would produce magic.
Ha!
I’m actually not kidding, though. I couldn’t be more of an admirer of Andy Blaney’s talent, but his demos show everything in the BEST possible light. He’s a formidable weapon in Spitfire’s arsenal.
Lawrence wrote: ↑Sep 03, 2019 5:17 pmI’m actually not kidding, though. I couldn’t be more of an admirer of Andy Blaney’s talent, but his demos show everything in the BEST possible light. He’s a formidable weapon in Spitfire’s arsenal.
With all due thanks to David Gosnell who re-posted this on VI-C, this is Andy Blaney using Kontakt and Gigastudio VSL in the early 2000s recreating Jupiter from the Planets Suite - https://www.vsl.co.at/audio/AB_Holst_Pl ... upiter.mp3 . Of course it's not perfect, the high strings right towards the end feel like the biggest fail, but my goodness. If that was a new library, people would likely be clamouring all over it, probably.
Seriously... how DOES he do it? It can't be actual witchcraft. There are other hugely accomplished composers with great technical skill, but they can't quite get his results, can they?
Guy Rowland wrote: ↑Sep 03, 2019 5:29 pm
With all due thanks to David Gosnell who re-posted this on VI-C, this is Andy Blaney using Kontakt and Gigastudio VSL in the early 2000s recreating Jupiter from the Planets Suite - https://www.vsl.co.at/audio/AB_Holst_Pl ... upiter.mp3 .
I mean, this is literally why I have a no andy/troel demo rule.
Both of them are simply too able to create something amazing with the least malleable samples.
What Blaney does is remarkable of course, but I wouldn't say it's magical, either! ;-) IMO, it is the combination of someone who can compose really well with pen and paper, but at the same time, he is good at playing samples and has all sorts of tricks up his sleeve how to fake certain things with programming. Add to that really good mixing skills and you have Mr. Blaney! The most important thing however: You have to be able to imagine a real orchestral performance in your head and keep that in your mind until the very last stages of the mix. This is really not easy, because in the mean time your have heard your midi a thousand times and it tends to replace the sound you first imagined ... I have nowhere near as many skills in the other aspects, but this is, what I REALLY struggle with.
Well, your basically have to master all parts of the craft of a composer and the midi producer and mixer. Some might call that magic ... ;-)
with respect - I think the most important thing is being able to write, and a close second is being able to arrange/orchestrate. But I think the ability to imagine the real performance (orchestral or not) plays into both of these, and absolutely becomes part of the process when tweaking and mixing.
One of the reasons that I still prefer to compose and at least start an arrangement on paper, or even in Finale, is that it separates the composition and arrangement from the mix. I don't know why that is important (to me at least) but it makes a big difference.
And since nothing is a rule, I need to compose about a dozen short snippets for a live theatre production that goes to tech this Sunday. I will use every tool in the toolbox, and probably work almost entirely in Sonar because of the short time frame, and the fact that these are all incidental cues or effects, and I will get away with it. (I think??)
(don't ask how I managed to get into this spot!!!)
The other exception worth noting - there are some developers (no names please) who write some fairly trite demos (speaking strictly of the composition), and yet they can make them exciting, and make the library sound awesome. That would be a useful skill right about now!
But it remains the handful of folks who can show off a library at its best every time (or nearly so) whom I tip my hat. It is one thing to be able to use a library to its fullest after spending time with it, but to be able to do so from scratch is impressive. (There was a Intimate Studio Brass demo when the library launched that blew me away, I very nearly bought "yet another" brass library based on that demo alone.)
The most popular superstition in sample world is the existence of a balanced template where you just have to fill notes and it will sound like a good orchestral mix. It's simply not the way it works. It doesn't even work inside a pre-mixed virtual acoustic drum kit.
I think the real magic is to imagine the result. It's the only way to correct things on the fly in the mockup creating process. A simple imbalance between the first few instruments on the start can dump a whole mockup. This imbalance can easily be achieved by mod wheel alone. It's like starting a song with a drum beat hitting the first kicks with velo 127 in the balanced drum kit. You can't go anywhere from there (except to eleven).
What I admire most in Andy Blaney's tracks is the cornucopia of ideas. No repeated bars or endless ostinatos or drum patterns to rely on. It's like a circle of ten kids throwing and catching ten balls to each other without ever dropping one of them. Not the single ball is interesting but the whole situation creates the magic. Same with the samples. Not every detail sounds real or elegant but the whole mockup does.
That reminds me. I recently posted Alex Ball's video again over at VI Control. (He posted it there last year.) Perhaps some members here might enjoy it as well.
Woodwind ensembles sound fantastic! Though missing many legato demos here, just a few notes from the oboes. And having heard the solo strings which sounded bumpy as all hell, that's definitely one to listen out for.
I really liked the MV in the strings. Brass sounded very good, but its the section I feel I need more of the least. Did like the damped timps, they'd be handy, and the harp trems sounded dreamy. The percussion in general was very tasty, have to say.
I wonder if they'll ever separate these into sections for sale?
Brass and woodwinds mostly sound very good to outstanding to me (trumpets, oboe, and the vibrato on the bassoon left a few doubts). Percussion sounds good. The strings were a mixed bag for me. I like the overall sound. The legato, however, does not sound quite right to me. Especially for faster passages, on the section leader of the second violins, and on the cello section. The portamento doesn't have that problem, but on the legato something in the note attack sounds off to me.
The room I like pretty much. Sounds much more like a classical orchestra than their Air Lyndhurst libraries. Absolutely fantastic is the sense of depth you get. I was skeptical about the number of mics. But it seems they allow control not only over the amount of reverb, but the depth as well. That's extraordinary and not something I get from other libraries. The mic position walkthrough will shed more light on this.
All in all it sounds like a solid, versatile package.
Left some thoughts on VIC, might as well copypaste here. But totally agree with your particulars Guy & Linos. If they released the woodwinds separately I'd look at it very, very seriously even though I'm $150 deep into SpitStuWinds.
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Likes:
Start with the microphone positions. Wow. The spill mics really do make a difference compared to the tree. It feels like the sound is captured as it goes across the entire stage. JJ's mixes sound great and probably they'll do the trick 90% of the time which means this library might be quite accessible even on stock computers. The close mics are REALLY nice and close and capture a great sound. Not at all like the C mic in Albion or the Cr (close ribbon) in Mural. Can picture some really nice 70s/80s style mixes if you want to mix in the close mics more.
The hall simply sounds wonderful on the brass and woodwinds. It made me look forlornly at some of my favorite instruments, it's hard to achieve that "opened up" hall sound with plugin reverb sometimes, and here with BBCSO it's the real thing. I like the space QUITE a bit more than Air (bet HZ disagrees!).
The woodwinds feel REALLY good. They have a musical, liquid and lively sound not at all like bored players recording one note at a time. Plus a beautiful and appropriate depth to the sound.
The brass sounded pretty darn good too, with a full capture of the dynamics and a nice variety of note-attack styles. Keep in mind we were mostly hearing the 4-horn patch so triads were 12 horns, etc.
As always one of the strongest aspects of Spitfire is their attention to auxiliary instruments. Loved the blatty contrabass tuba - and the contrabass clarinet really extends the range!
Similarly there's a thorough attention paid to auxiliary articulations here, like a full setup of true con sord strings, very nice.
You can't argue with the value. There was Composer Cloud, and the Albion redo, and Berlin Orchestra Inspire, and SSO/Masse - it seems like year upon year there are deeper and cheaper "first VI" products from every developer and Spitfire have nosed ahead once again with BBCSO.
Concerns:
I have to admit as a strings guy, the strings didn't feel too special. In part because it feels like kind of standard stuff and in part because the performance legato didn't convince me. I wouldn't expect it to, tbh, because Paul was playing some quite challenging passages for VI strings and performing live. I know there's a full legato video coming so this is more of a "reserve judgement" than a "dislike."
Feels like we got a demo of everything but the legatos - again I know there's a video coming - but it'll be really crucial to learn how many dynamics of recorded legato transitions there are, etc. Some people think this is number crunching. It's really about whether the legato transitions can fit into every dynamic of performance. For example if you listen to the legatos in Hollywood Brass, to pick on an older library, they sound quite good at mf and f but if you try to play at mp the legato transitions pop right out and sound glurpy, you have to work around it or use fewer transitions when writing quietly.
In the end a lot of what I look for in a VI is just the sustains and legatos, not a highly varied palette of "sound pad colors." It seems like a wide and growing difference with the philosophy of Spitfire's products unfortunately.
I wanna make a point here for clarity's sake - I certainly do not care so much about legatos because I'm a fascist for realism or because I have a fetish for sounding like John Williams. It's simply because it is the main use case in my work. Legato strings - sometimes lyrical, sometimes emotional, sometimes fast, sometimes non vib, but the same basic articulation - accounted for 75% of the string writing I either write on assignment or am asked to synthestrate. Another 20% would be string motor stuff using a combination of spiccato, staccatissimo and staccato - so those articulations are crucial as well, especially their interchangeability. And the final 5% would be tremolos and harmonics. Everything else is used less than 1% of the time.
So, there's quite a hierarchy there.
I don't even have pizzicatos loaded in my synthestration template, if I write some I'll throw some in from my favorite library or even whatever library I scroll down to first. And while, as an ex string player, I do regret the clunkiness of "emulated" con sord and I'd probably write for muted strings MUCH more often if my template had true samples of 'em, that consideration doesn't trump using the library with the best out of the box sustains and legatos.
Regardless, some of us here in the “colonies” still feel a strong attachment to ‘Queen and country’ on occasion. “Rule Britannia”....eh? 
