The DAW, considered

[Lawrence]

To be clear, this is not about which DAW you use, but rather how you think of your DAW.

Roberto commented that Cubase 15 seemed to be made for him because of its improvements in notation (among other things.) That got me thinking. I used to hand write scores that were barely legible, but thankfully there were copyists in my business back in those days. I very rarely have need for the notation functions that exist now.

I started recording with tape machines. The earliest I can remember that allowed for multitrack recording was a four track TEAC. Some friends and I recorded folk songs on that machine, and during my first road gig my songwriting partner brought it on the road with us. We shared hotel rooms and wrote and recorded pop songs. We would record a few tracks and then bounce them, then record more.

When I moved to New York in the late 70’s, I bought myself a Fostex four track cassette recorder which I used for a year or two. When I graduated to studio recording, the standard was eight track tape recorders. Pretty soon, studios had moved to 16 tracks and then 24 tracks. To achieve even more tracks, there was still bouncing between tracks, and sometimes locking two 24 track machines together.

I acquired my first DAW with virtual instruments and effects when I bought Cubase VST in 1997. Both were very rudimentary but at that point I saw the future. The modern DAW is still rather amazing, virtually unlimited tracks, effects, instruments, all in the box, all recallable, but the concept is the same for me-a great big tape recorder that comes with a built-in mixing board and internal effects and instruments rather than external. It’s still just the canvas I paint on, expanded.

There are three things that I miss-the big studios with their particular sounds and vibes, the great engineers with great ears and the interaction and enjoyment of playing with a bunch of other musicians. The modern DAW has removed the absolute need for these, they are now luxury items. That’s part of the challenge of modernity as I see it.

[Guy Rowland]

With our boundless new playgrounds, it fascinates me that so much time is spent trying to emulate the good old days. People actually believe that if they buy an emulation of Abbey Road's plate reverbs some of that old Beatles magic will rub off on them.

It won't.

What, as far as I know, people NEVER do is actually limit themselves to those nostalgic restrictions of yesteryear. Pro Tools Intro is totally free and has 8 stereo audio tracks - plus instrument and mid tracks thrown in. And auxes, and and and. It's far more than any of us had in 1980. You can bounce from track to track just like the good old days. If you got good at it, you could doubtless produce a no1 hit that way.

But we don't do that do we? Cos it's irritating and tedious - like it always was.

But we will spend thousands on making ourselves believe we are as talented as those brilliant engineers and producers of yesteryear working in those hallowed spaces.

[Jaap]

My DAW is just my allround workplace. Instead of my studio from the early 2000's it is now a nice organised thing into one box more or less. No more countless cables, hardware racks, mixing desks etc.
I liked that visually, but the current age of DAW's (and I use Nuendo btw) is for me a place where I can organise, open and load everything I need for my work without being distracted by other stuff that I have to manage.
The DAW itself won't do anything for me, so I don't believe in those magic names that replicate certain tools from certain era's. I still need to dial those knobs myself, feed it with the correct music and sounds.

As I see my DAW nowadays is as an efficient gateway between my idea and result that I present to the world.

[GR Baumann]

I encountered several DAWs, from earliest Steinberg stuff on Atari, over to Samplitude, Cubase, Nuendo, and since 2009 Logic.

The latter is and always will be a book of seven seals to me. I am too old to learn all that I could do with it, and rather ask David Nahmani and others when I hit a wall, which thankfully is not too often, like solving something within Logic "Environment".

Logic is a blank canvas to me, the first brush I use most of the time is Omnisphere, and from there grab other brushes and colours to paint a picture.

I am most grateful for the inherent stability, that cannot be overestimated, I experienced the opposite before, many times.

There are aspects in Logic that I have not even touched yet, such as the Grid with Loops etc., or the recent AI drummers, Keyboarders etc., and I am not sure I ever will. Again, stability for my way of using it is numero uno, and so far I have no complaints. I was Native Instruments free zone for a long time, and only recently added Kontakt again, but left out an update option to my former Komplete Version.

Mac Tahoe is out since September, reports are encouraging that Logic runs stable within OS 26.1, talking about Kontakt, two months later, it is still not listed as compatible, but well, this is an ongoing story.

All in all, I resigned to the fact that I will never grasp every inch that covers logic territory, I learn as I go, and I could not be happier with that gem of a Daw, last but not least also considering the bang for buck ratio.

[Luke]

Leaving plugins aside for a minute and just focusing on your question, Larry, I had to think about it for a minute. I've been realizing lately that I've often "resisted" the DAW. I reckon because it's about technology and what that technology allows you to create, whereas I want the writing to be the focus of attention. Experimentation vs Craft; until experimentation becomes craft?

But lately, I am thinking of it more in the former terms - the composition process as not only rooted in writing, but also throwing things "onto" the DAW and seeing what sticks. And in that way, the tape recorders of yesteryear can't quite compete when you factor in the myriad of sound sources that can be conjured from the lines of codes we use today. Having said that, I do still value going out and recording my own sources/sounds to then manipulate in the DAW.

Also present is a powerful visual component with today's DAWs that was absent before this modernization. It's an intrinsic element of the workflow and hard to abandon once discovered - to our own detriment perhaps. Which cuts a little into Guys argument of why we don't use 8-track recorders or Pro Tools in such a way. I don't so much think it's about it being tedious but rather, that we don't do it in any facet of modern life because we don't HAVE to; and some creative spark might even get lost that way without us knowing.

Like Jaap I used to have a lot of wired elements and am trying hard to hold on to what I still have now, but as lovely as it is to fiddle around with knobs and stay in the moment, this only works for personal creative work, not when you have to deliver. So its value becomes purely personal. Exceptions made for instruments that can't easily/convincingly be recreated in the DAW (this is a whole other can of worms).

And like you said, also absent is the absolute need to call in others and get jamming together to figure it out, even when starting from a prepped arrangement. That part I do not think can be replaced by the DAW. Musicians in a room playing to each other = right up there with seeing a sunrise over the Sierra Nevada.

[wst3]

To be clear, this is not about which DAW you use, but rather how you think of your DAW.<SNIP>
There are three things that I miss-the big studios with their particular sounds and vibes, the great engineers with great ears and the interaction and enjoyment of playing with a bunch of other musicians. The modern DAW has removed the absolute need for these, they are now luxury items. That’s part of the challenge of modernity as I see it.

I have mixed feelings about the computer in my studio, such as it is (the studio, not the DAW).

On the one hand it is so easy to undo things, re-arrange things, and generally have fun experimenting with ideas, that it is difficult to imagine musical life without it. Difficult, but then nostalgia kicks in, I do miss working with real human beings, in real time. I really miss that!

In a strange way, I even miss "editing" with a razor blade... I still think editing with one's ears worked better, even if it was a lot more difficult to make those edits, and even MORE difficult to undo an edit.

I do not miss repairing cables - even as careful as I was that happened far too often, and I especially do not miss aligning tape decks or chasing down noise gremlins. Except I still get to repair cables (not nearly as frequently) and hunt down hums and buzzes (even less frequently, but still...)

The DAW is a tool, and it has a lot of cool features that make writing easier, but producing hasn't actually gotten a lot easier.

[Lawrence]

With our boundless new playgrounds, it fascinates me that so much time is spent trying to emulate the good old days. People actually believe that if they buy an emulation of Abbey Road's plate reverbs some of that old Beatles magic will rub off on them.

It won't.

What, as far as I know, people NEVER do is actually limit themselves to those nostalgic restrictions of yesteryear. Pro Tools Intro is totally free and has 8 stereo audio tracks - plus instrument and mid tracks thrown in. And auxes, and and and. It's far more than any of us had in 1980. You can bounce from track to track just like the good old days. If you got good at it, you could doubtless produce a no1 hit that way.

But we don't do that do we? Cos it's irritating and tedious - like it always was.

But we will spend thousands on making ourselves believe we are as talented as those brilliant engineers and producers of yesteryear working in those hallowed spaces.

And yet with our busy lives, somehow we mostly skip the step of recruiting 3 other lads (or lasses) whose skills and sensibilities complement ours. Curious, that. It’s a solitary age.

I’m presently working with a collaborator. We did a track with a live drummer recently! Of course it was an overdub/loop replacement (sigh.)

[Lawrence]

I encountered several DAWs, from earliest Steinberg stuff on Atari, over to Samplitude, Cubase, Nuendo, and since 2009 Logic.

The latter is and always will be a book of seven seals to me. I am too old to learn all that I could do with it, and rather ask David Nahmani and others when I hit a wall, which thankfully is not too often, like solving something within Logic "Environment".

Logic is a blank canvas to me, the first brush I use most of the time is Omnisphere, and from there grab other brushes and colours to paint a picture.

I am most grateful for the inherent stability, that cannot be overestimated, I experienced the opposite before, many times.

There are aspects in Logic that I have not even touched yet, such as the Grid with Loops etc., or the recent AI drummers, Keyboarders etc., and I am not sure I ever will. Again, stability for my way of using it is numero uno, and so far I have no complaints. I was Native Instruments free zone for a long time, and only recently added Kontakt again, but left out an update option to my former Komplete Version.

Mac Tahoe is out since September, reports are encouraging that Logic runs stable within OS 26.1, talking about Kontakt, two months later, it is still not listed as compatible, but well, this is an ongoing story.

All in all, I resigned to the fact that I will never grasp every inch that covers logic territory, I learn as I go, and I could not be happier with that gem of a Daw, last but not least also considering the bang for buck ratio.

I doubt I utilize more than 30% of Cubase and I doubt I ever will but the amount I do use is extremely utilitarian and friendly. As you say-stability. At its worst, my system is 100 times more stable than my system of the early 80’s when my synths spent half their time in the shop, the Harrison boards we used needed constant cleaning of the potentiometers, the MCI recorder and the two track needed to be aligned far too often, don’t get me started on ADATS, syncing with video, etc!!

[Lawrence]

To be clear, this is not about which DAW you use, but rather how you think of your DAW.<SNIP>
There are three things that I miss-the big studios with their particular sounds and vibes, the great engineers with great ears and the interaction and enjoyment of playing with a bunch of other musicians. The modern DAW has removed the absolute need for these, they are now luxury items. That’s part of the challenge of modernity as I see it.

I have mixed feelings about the computer in my studio, such as it is (the studio, not the DAW).

On the one hand it is so easy to undo things, re-arrange things, and generally have fun experimenting with ideas, that it is difficult to imagine musical life without it. Difficult, but then nostalgia kicks in, I do miss working with real human beings, in real time. I really miss that!

In a strange way, I even miss "editing" with a razor blade... I still think editing with one's ears worked better, even if it was a lot more difficult to make those edits, and even MORE difficult to undo an edit.

I do not miss repairing cables - even as careful as I was that happened far too often, and I especially do not miss aligning tape decks or chasing down noise gremlins. Except I still get to repair cables (not nearly as frequently) and hunt down hums and buzzes (even less frequently, but still...)

The DAW is a tool, and it has a lot of cool features that make writing easier, but producing hasn't actually gotten a lot easier.

Bill, I tried to sell or donate but eventually threw out hundreds of MIDI and audio cables as I moved from external synths and submixers into an “in the box” world. Even so I do remember learning to solder back in the day when money was tight. “Heat the work, not the solder”- I finally got it!

[Lawrence]

Leaving plugins aside for a minute and just focusing on your question, Larry, I had to think about it for a minute. I've been realizing lately that I've often "resisted" the DAW. I reckon because it's about technology and what that technology allows you to create, whereas I want the writing to be the focus of attention. Experimentation vs Craft; until experimentation becomes craft?

But lately, I am thinking of it more in the former terms - the composition process as not only rooted in writing, but also throwing things "onto" the DAW and seeing what sticks. And in that way, the tape recorders of yesteryear can't quite compete when you factor in the myriad of sound sources that can be conjured from the lines of codes we use today. Having said that, I do still value going out and recording my own sources/sounds to then manipulate in the DAW.

Also present is a powerful visual component with today's DAWs that was absent before this modernization. It's an intrinsic element of the workflow and hard to abandon once discovered - to our own detriment perhaps. Which cuts a little into Guys argument of why we don't use 8-track recorders or Pro Tools in such a way. I don't so much think it's about it being tedious but rather, that we don't do it in any facet of modern life because we don't HAVE to; and some creative spark might even get lost that way without us knowing.

Like Jaap I used to have a lot of wired elements and am trying hard to hold on to what I still have now, but as lovely as it is to fiddle around with knobs and stay in the moment, this only works for personal creative work, not when you have to deliver. So its value becomes purely personal. Exceptions made for instruments that can't easily/convincingly be recreated in the DAW (this is a whole other can of worms).

And like you said, also absent is the absolute need to call in others and get jamming together to figure it out, even when starting from a prepped arrangement. That part I do not think can be replaced by the DAW. Musicians in a room playing to each other = right up there with seeing a sunrise over the Sierra Nevada.

Luke, totally agree with you that the old methods can’t “compete” with the infinite possibilities modern DAWS have given us. I will comment that the visual aspects you mention have their downsides for my aging eyes-I squint a LOT and my eyes are constantly dry.

On the plus side my ears are going too, so there’s a balance

[Lawrence]

My DAW is just my allround workplace. Instead of my studio from the early 2000's it is now a nice organised thing into one box more or less. No more countless cables, hardware racks, mixing desks etc.
I liked that visually, but the current age of DAW's (and I use Nuendo btw) is for me a place where I can organise, open and load everything I need for my work without being distracted by other stuff that I have to manage.
The DAW itself won't do anything for me, so I don't believe in those magic names that replicate certain tools from certain era's. I still need to dial those knobs myself, feed it with the correct music and sounds.

As I see my DAW nowadays is as an efficient gateway between my idea and result that I present to the world.

I agree that the DAW is a very efficient tool to record and produce music and sound. I will stick with the notion that some magic has been lost when there is no interplay between musicians playing together in a visually and sonically pleasing space. Of course, it depends on the type of work that’s being done.

Somewhat OT-I listen back to some of the live rhythm sections recorded back in the day and feel a groove that moves me. I disdained them in the disco days when I was playing their songs live, but when I listen back to the BeeGees rhythm sections recorded at Criteria Studios in Miami, I’m amazed by the tightness and feel of those grooves.

[Luke]

On the plus side my ears are going too, so there’s a balance

And your sense of humor is aces

[wst3]

If you listen to NPR News out of DC you may, or may not, notice a certain "musical" quality to their recorded stories. The producers there used to insist that all edits be made with ears, not eyes, and it makes (made?) a difference.

I can't argue that the visual aspect of editing audio and MIDI provide some speed/efficiency to the process, but they can rob a track of the liveliness that comes from editing solely with one's ears.

Perhaps I am just a curmudgeon, but I've heard very few tracks that were created/edited solely with the eyes that can compete with tracks edited with one's ears. Not saying it can't be done, but I am willing to say I am no where near the skill level required to make it happen.

To Larry's comment about music produced before edits were made visually I can only concur. Was it the magic of musicians interacting? Was it that edits were made by ear? Probably both.

As a recovering guitarist I have never recorded a track all by my lonesome that has the feel of tracks I recorded way back when. And I miss the sights, sounds, and smells of 2" tape<G>!

[Ashermusic]

[

I agree that the DAW is a very efficient tool to record and produce music and sound. I will stick with the notion that some magic has been lost when there is no interplay between musicians playing together in a visually and sonically pleasing space. Of course, it depends on the type of work that’s being done.

Somewhat OT-I listen back to some of the live rhythm sections recorded back in the day and feel a groove that moves me. I disdained them in the disco days when I was playing their songs live, but when I listen back to the BeeGees rhythm sections recorded at Criteria Studios in Miami, I’m amazed by the tightness and feel of those grooves.

This.

[RobS]

To be clear, this is not about which DAW you use, but rather how you think of your DAW.

Roberto commented that Cubase 15 seemed to be made for him because of its improvements in notation (among other things.) That got me thinking. I used to hand write scores that were barely legible, but thankfully there were copyists in my business back in those days. I very rarely have need for the notation functions that exist

Yes that’s how I feel about this update. The importance the expression maps and notation have acquired makes Cubase a friendlier place to be for me. Much less interested in plugins, synths and all that. Thanks Larry and all for telling each personal experience

[GR Baumann]

You know what makes me always grin? Them videos comparing the latest and greatest CPU resulting in DAW 1-5 tests, and then.... track counts!

Copying tracks until the CPU starts to puke 011010001, then compare all the Daws.

Yes of course, there are some rare composers who need gazillions of tracks in their daily business, but how many out of the 100% Daw users out there? My guess is less than 1 %. How often do they write something like Mahler’s No. 8 comprising 1,200 musicians?

One of the last frontiers in Daw-Technology that I can see is the handling of expressions, and that I believe will be solved rather sooner than later via in Daw-AI, rendering current crutches obsolete.

[RobS]

You know what makes me always grin? Them videos comparing the latest and greatest CPU resulting in DAW 1-5 tests, and then.... track counts!

Copying tracks until the CPU starts to puke 011010001, then compare all the Daws.

Yes of course, there are some rare composers who need gazillions of tracks in their daily business, but how many out of the 100% Daw users out there? My guess is less than 1 %. How often do they write something like Mahler’s No. 8 comprising 1,200 musicians?

One of the last frontiers in Daw-Technology that I can see is the handling of expressions, and that I believe will be solved rather sooner than later via in Daw-AI, rendering current crutches obsolete.

Having adopted the “one track per instrument “ approach I hardly reach a 50 tracks count, for a full orchestra.